Honeymoon's Over: Iverson's Statistical Breakdown
When I initially wrote about the Allen Iverson signing, I said that the basketball didn't matter. Until last season Allen Iverson has always helped basketball teams win. No his extremely flawed Nuggets team didn't ever make it out of the first round, but they won in the regular season and made the playoffs consistently. Iverson even kept things interesting in Philly even while they rebuilt. As long as management and coaching let Iverson help this team, I was confident he would do everything to win.
But for some people that's just not good enough. Some people like to see these things called 'statistics' as proof, and since I'm here to please, over the jump you'll find a statistical analysis of the Allen Iverson acquistion.
Lets begin with usage. The main worry about adding Iverson is that he dominates the ball too much, which will suffocate the growth of O.J. Mayo, Rudy Gay, and Mike Conley. Here is the Grizzlies outlook without Iverson:
Conley Mayo Gay Z-Bo M. Gasol Usage 17.9% 24.5% 25.6% 28.1% 18.3% With the help of a calculator you'll be pleased to note that the usage percentages come out to 114.4%. Try to test me at home, I dare you.
The Grizzlies' projected total of 114.4% seems high compared to these top-tier teams, but not absurdly high.
Without Iverson it was already clear that some players on the Grizzlies would need to reduce their usage, meaning that they would have to give up some shots unless the Grizzlies boosted their pace. With Iverson the issue is less clear, since it's nobody is certain whether Iverson will start or act as a 6th man.
Here is what our usage chart would look like with Iverson replacing Mike Conley in the starting lineup:
Iverson
Mayo
Gay
Z-Bo
M. Gasol
Usage
25.9%
24.5%
25.6%
28.1%
18.3%
With Iverson in the starting lineup the usage percentage as a team comes up to 122.4%. That is much too high, which means that at least two players are going to be doing significantly less shooting.
But how would Iverson's 25.9% usage compare to other 6th men, scoring guards around the Association?
| Iverson | F. Murray | Hinrich | J. Terry | J. Jack | Robinson | Pietrus | Williams | Barbosa | Ginobilli | |
| Usage | 25.9% | 24.3% | 18.1% | 25.5% | 18.5% | 25.6% | 18.4% | 27.7% | 24.2% | 27.2% |
So it's clear that if Iverson comes off the bench for about 24-28 minutes per game he can have all the touches that he wants, just like the rest of these players. I would even be willing to go a step further and say that Iverson is certainly a better scorer than all of these guys but Terry and Ginobilli. Lets test that assertion:
Iverson
F. Murray
Hinrich
J. Terry
J. Jack
Robinson
Pietrus
Williams
Barbosa
Ginobilli
PER
15.9
14.7
13.9
19.3
13.1
18.9
11.6
16.3
19.4
22.9
ORtg
102
104
108
115
107
111
106
105
117
114
WS
2.5
3.1
2.6
7.3
4.3
6.2
3.0
3.3
5.3
4.8
Ouch. There is no denying that Iverson's last season just doesn't stack up statistically. With the Nuggets the year before, however, Iverson held a PER of 20.9, an ORtg of 115, and held 12.6 Win Shares (note that his Win Shares are not comparable to the other 6th men because he played almost 42 minutes per game)
I'd like to draw a comparison here to 6th man of the year Jason Terry. 'The Jet' had a pathetically poor PER of 16.2 and an ORtg of just 103 in his last season starting for the Atlanta Hawks. He seemed to be washed up when Dallas signed him in 2004-2005, but as soon as he began playing shorter minutes Terry's statistics jumped to a PER of 18.4 and, more importantly, an absurd ORtg of 120. Can we hire Terry as an assistant coach?
Terry is not the only player to experience this phenomenon. Center Brad Miller saw a drop of about 5 minutes per game when traded from the Kings to the Bulls this year, but his PER and offensive efficiency improved markedly (PER-15.7 to 18.6, ORtg-112 to 118). Kevin Garnett lost 8 minutes per game when traded from Minnesota to Boston, yet his PER remained consistent and his ORtg increased from 110 to 118. Examples abound of veteran players who reduce their minutes and instantly see a boost in per minute production and efficiency, often back to the same stats they put up in their primes.
So if A.I.'s time in Detroit is a realistic expectation for Iverson's production then the Grizzlies have signed a player who is probably a significantly less valuable 6th man than even Hakim Warrick was last season, or have signed a starting player who will likely drain possessions from much more efficient scorers.
Personally I believe A.I. was just in a bad situation in Detroit last year, and that, while his skills are certainly in decline, he has plenty of talent left. Lots of people point out that 71% of Iverson's field-goal attempts last season were jumpers, which is often a sign of decline. I'd like to point out that 69% of Iverson's field-goal attempts in his last season with Denver were jumpers, and he was still one of the most effective offensive players in the league.
If Iverson can return to efficiency similar to his time with the Denver Nuggets, which is realistic if he is given a lighter workload, a la Jason Terry, he will be right up there with Manu, The Jet, and Nate Rob in the conversation of top six-men in the league.
So from a statistical standpoint it certainly looks like Allen Iverson really needs to either be short-minute starting for about 30 minutes a game, or needs to come off the bench while playing the end of the 4th quarter with the starters. Again Jason Terry is the best model for Iverson, who needs to realize that--at 34 years old--a shot at the 6th man of the year might help his team more than trying to win the MVP.
2 recs |
10 comments
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Comments
Starting Vs. 6th man
Comparing AI to the top tier 6th men in this league, is comparing apples and oranges. they are accustumed to the 6th man role and know how to be effective doing so. Allen iverson is not the same. he literally cannot be effective playing that way, whether he is willing or not. so it makes absolutely no sense to use him that way. and i hate the term “diminished role,” how about we say “different role,” diminished just has a really negative connotation. Im not saying that he shouldnt play a “different role” but sitting him on the bench will simply not work. and is much as i enjoy your posts, you rely far too much on statistics. you cant compare AI playing with team A, throw him into team B with those same statistics and expect the same result. it is a flawed way of looking at the situation in my opinion. Conley would be the much better alternative as a 6th man. First of all, he is accumstumed to the role. he has done it before. Not to mention, i dont believe he would have any problem accepting the role.
Well...
Bench or no bench isn’t really the issue. It’s the total amount of minutes played. If Iverson starts and plays about 30 minutes then that is really no different than being a 6th man for all intents and purposes. The point of the post is that Iverson needs to reduce his minutes.
On the stats issue: I like to think I mix it up. If I just followed stats then clearly I wouldn’t support the Iverson acquisition, which I do.
Also what is different between being a 6th man playing with a defensively minded unit, like the Grizzlies bench, and his successful years in Philly? I would contend that during Iverson’s best years he played just like a sixth-man, he just happened to start the game. The difference between being a sixth-man and being a starter is only that you are typically featured like a superstar (hence the high usage %‘s) even if you’re not one.
Straight Outta Vancouver - The Memphis Grizzlies DO Still Exist
by djturtleface on Sep 14, 2009 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Iverson's Stats
If Iverson shot 71% of his FG attempts as jump shots last season and 69% his last full season in Denver then what were those numbers like in previous years? Are we seeing a trend or is this simply the range he has always averaged?
Please visit www.3sob.com
Wish I could tell you.
But 82games.com has only recorded that for the pat two years, and I don’t know anywhere else that has that complex of statistics.
I will say this though. Even if it is a downward trend, a 2% change shouldn’t be enough to change your EfFG% by like 50%.
Straight Outta Vancouver - The Memphis Grizzlies DO Still Exist
by djturtleface on Sep 14, 2009 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I hear where you are coming from. But AI is not the type of player that can be rotated in and out frequently and still be effective. He is a volume scorer, and in order for him to be effective he has to to play minutes in bulk. This allows him to get into a rythm where he can be an absolute scoring machine. And starting the game, which he is accustumed to, allows him to find that rythm earlier in the game which in turm maximizes his talent. Everything your saying is exactly what was said last year in detroit. Talking about him playing off the bench with defensive minded players, and allowing him to be the primary scorer off the bench. in theory it sounds good, but i am telling you that it will not work. As i have said time and again, he simply cannot be effective playing off the bench. He’s said as much himself. So it would not be in the best interest of the team to use him in that manner. The NBA is about winning now, and allen iverson in the starting lineup gives the team the best oppurtunity to do that. With OJ and AI alternating possetions at the point, i dont see any reason why they cant effectively run the offense.
Or the alternative would be to coninue to let the young “core” develop, and in about 7 years the team may be competing for something. But by that time you will have lost OJ, and Rudy because they are sick of losing and will make a mad dash out of memphis for a bigger market, more relevant team when there contracts are up. Then the team either starts the process all over again, is sold, or falls of the face of the earth. You must win now, or you will be forever stuck in developing or rebuilding mode.
Agreed
That with A.I. the Grizzlies’ season is definitely no longer just about developing the young players.
But the problem is that Iverson is just too old to play as many minutes as he wants to. It has nothing to do with coming off bench or starting; he is too damn old to be playing 36 minutes a game. No 34 year old does it. If he wants to start, OK, but he better keep his minutes down in the 2nd and 3rd so he can play most of the 1st and 4th. If he needs the minutes en masse to get into rhythm, more power to him, but that means he’ll also have to hit the bench longer in between goes.
Straight Outta Vancouver - The Memphis Grizzlies DO Still Exist
by djturtleface on Sep 15, 2009 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions
age
You underestimate AI. I assure you he could play 36 minutes with 10 pound weights attached to his feet. And then be ready to play another 36 right after. the guy is a freak of nature, he never really tires.
Of course...
He could play 36 minutes, but at some point you have to consider that the alternative is more valuable over the course of the season.
I don’t know how saying that A.I. could be better than Manu, Terry, or Barbosa could possibly be underestimating him. At some point every player becomes overworked. Of course Iverson could keep playing, and would likely remain nearly as effective as his normal self, but at some point his efficiency will begin to reduce. This isn’t a knock on A.I., it happens to everyone.
Most teams don’t have the luxury of protecting the legs of their best players, but Memphis does. Mike Conley isn’t great, but he is a much better than average backup. I guarantee you that Kevin Garnett will see his minutes drop this season, so will Paul Pierce, and probably Ray Allen too. And that’s fine. They are still all absolute monsters on the court, but it’s in their team’s best interest to give them some rest.
Even O.J. Mayo became tired and lost his efficiency late last season. It happens to young players too, albeit at a slightly higher threshold.
Straight Outta Vancouver - The Memphis Grizzlies DO Still Exist
by djturtleface on Sep 16, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Iverson's Statisticles Breakdown
No disrespect, but your oppinion about AI reminds me of one of the hooks Janice Jackson used for one her R&B singles..awwwwwww I think that it goes something like this WHAT have you done for me Lately? I think Stats are good to a point but after that point the human factor has to be considered. This MAN AI is a Worrier! To disregaurd what this man has accomplished is simply CRAZY! That is Why We Play The Game! The Nay Sayers will be the fire that he needs for an All Star Year! News Flash you heard hear it from me FIRST!
Read above...
Manu, Terry, Barbosa—all All-Stars or near it.
Saying A.I. can win 6th man of the year isn’t disrespecting the man. The guys I compared him to, in my opinion, are in the top 50 players in the league. Manu might be top 20 when healthy. You can play shorter minutes because you’re not as talented, or you can play shorter minutes because your contributions are so valuable that they need to be protected. That’s not disrespect, it’s the exact opposite.
Straight Outta Vancouver - The Memphis Grizzlies DO Still Exist
by djturtleface on Sep 16, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions

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